Phil. I don't have Andrew's DVD. I only know what his pupils teach. In the Waltz does he count 1 and 2 and 3 and. The first (and) is the foot coming under the body. The solid beat out to the side is on two. The closing of the feet is on an (and). The rise and lowering are on three (and).
Just my thoughts on the Foxtrot basic timing. For years before there ever was the technology to watch frame by frame analizing they danced a pretty good in time Foxtrot. But the legs were very straight. Now we have knees bending to 45 degrees which does alter the mood of the dance. The time has to come from somewhere.The body and shoulders have a different timing to the feet which is the old faithful S Q Q four beats and three steps. John Wood goes into this one. My orginal statement said, and this is a quote. Get your two quicks on the beats and the slows will look after themselves. If I go into my Reverse Turn late with normal timing it looks bad. I will be chasing the beat. I doubt if any teacher who knows what they are about would allow a pupil to go into their Reverse out of time or out of sequence.
What sort of a teacher would say in a class. On our Reverse Turn we will let the beat go and come in late. It sounds as ridiculace as it is. Get those two quicks before the Reverse on the beats and the two in the Reverse on the beat and I am sure that slow in between will be fine.
The way you are counting your basic timing is the only way. Your count will give us a Feather . Reverse and a Three Step.
Those who for some reason like to wrestle with numbers. At 30 bars a minute that sequence will take eight seconds. I really don't need to know that because the music is my guide. I just keep time with the music being played, the orchestra look after this.. If the music is slower I don't need to get my calulator out. Just listen and dance.

"My orginal statement said, and this is a quote. Get your two quicks on the beats and the slows will look after themselves."

That is just GROSSLY IGNORNANT AND INCOMPETENT.

When all of the best dancers are dancing and teaching a body movement which results in the feet taking an extra beat to beat and three quarters, how can you stand there telling us the step must be precisely a beat and not see what an IDIOT you are being?

"When all of the best dancers are dancing and teaching a body movement which results in the feet taking an extra beat to beat and three quarters, how can you stand there telling us the step must be precisely a beat and not see what an IDIOT you are being?"

Quckstep, you make me repeat this so many times I can't even type it right!

Extra half beat to three quarters of a beat, total is 1.5 to 1.75 beats.

When I read in an official technique book, or Richard Hearn in his letter service states in writting, that the third steps of a Feather is 1.5 to 1.75 of a beat then I will beleive it. I have one before me now a Feather Step S Q Q. and guess what, the first of the Fallaway is a Slow two beats. Untill then. Fina Legare.

"When I read in an official technique book, or Richard Hearn in his letter service states in writting, that the third steps of a Feather is 1.5 to 1.75 of a beat then I will beleive it."

You will not read it in the technique book because FOXTROT IS NOT ABOUT FOOT TIMING.

IF foxtrot were a rhythm dance - if it were about foot timing - then the way foxtrot was documented would be a lot more like the way cha cha cha is documented. There, each figure is offset from the bar - it starts late on beat two, and it carries over to the beat one of the following bar.

The classic SQQ action of foxtrot in fact has the same sort of carryover. But not exactly by a beat - instead, it's by a messy, subjective fraction. The fact that it would be messy to document it accurately is the minor reason why nobody has updated the book to accuretly reflect this.

But the major reason no one has seen fit to "correct" the book here is that OBSESSING ABOUT FOOT TIMING WILL NOT HELP YOUR FOXTROT. Foxtrot is a dance that is about the body movement - you SHOULD NOT BE THINKING ABOUT YOUR FEET.

The only reason you need specific information about foot timing is to correct wrong information that you've somehow picked up. You would be a better, more fluid and natural dancer if you had never asked the question of foot timing in the first place. But since you've chosen to ask the question and interest yourself in the subject, you will need ACCURATE INFORMATION TO CORRECT YOUR MISTAKEN IDEAS.

When Billy Irvine said to accentuate that second step. By that we would all interpret it as meaning get on it quicker. Maybe he had that delayed third step in mind and is suggesting we get it on the beat. He also said many dancers were not in time in the Foxtrot.
So your breakdown of this if we do arrive quicker on the second step. Does that slice some timing off the third step and make it on the fourth beat.

"When Billy Irvine said to accentuate that second step. By that we would all interpret it as meaning get on it quicker.
Maybe he had that delayed third step in mind and is suggesting we get it on the beat."

Extremely unlikely that he mispoke - if he did, he would be in disagreement with EVEYRONE ELSE of consequence. Everybody agress that the first quick goes on the third beat. But NO SERIOUS DANCER places their second quick on the fourth beat in an ordinary SQQ figure. It's just incompatible with foxtrot.

"He also said many dancers were not in time in the Foxtrot."

Very true - there are numerous pitfalls. The most common is getting AHEAD OF THE MUSIC. But again, FOXTROT TIMING IS IN THE BODY, NOT IN THE FEET.

"So your breakdown of this if we do arrive quicker on the second step. Does that slice some timing off the third step and make it on the fourth beat."

No. None of the steps is shorter than a beat. The footfall interval for the first step is moderately longer. The third step is drastically longer - 1.5 beats being about minimum for serious dancers. And even the second step has an interval a hair longer than a beat.

FOXTROT SIMPLY IS NOT ABOUT STEPPING ON BEATS!

It's just playing around with the music. And whilst this is going on the lady who has footwork different to the man and lowers at a different time . I have every respect for our lady dancers. but if you watch even some of our top competitors frame by frame there are some pretty sloppy Heel Turns taking place. Could it be they are not allowed to do the timing they are supposed to do. Then watch Gleave's and partner as well as Wood's for perfection.
I believe you have changed your mind about that left side leading into a Reverse Turn. As well as coming from a left side lead to a neutral position after that third quick with a count of 4 ( and ). These movements have a direct bearing on the timing of the two bars of music. Which also has an effect on the alignment of the Reverse Turn. I beleive watching frame by frame, and untill you watched frame by frame, you had an idea that your alignment on the second quick of a Reverse was backing diagnal to the wall. All of these steps have a conection on how the Feather Step is going to be danced.
Back to the two quicks. I think you will be the first to agree that I can either arrive on the first quick with a drive and taper off on the next quick. Or I can do it the other way around.

"It's just playing around with the music. And whilst this is going on the lady who has footwork different to the man and lowers at a different time."

The minor detail of using foot rise or body rise only cannot change the fact - OBVIOUS TO ANYONE WHO WATCHES WITH CARE - that their weight changes have the same timing as their partner's on basic SQQ figures.

"but if you watch even some of our top competitors frame by frame there are some pretty sloppy Heel Turns taking place."

Indeed.

"Could it be they are not allowed to do the timing they are supposed to do."

No.

"I believe you have changed your mind about that left side leading into a Reverse Turn."

Absolutely not. I can see the same mistakes on couples you can, but unlike you I have firsthand knowledge of WHAT THEIR OWN COACHES REQUEST. Knowldege easily confirmed by discussing the matter with anyone who has studied with them.

"All of these steps have a conection on how the Feather Step is going to be danced."

No possible when you theory of how a feather step is danced is at odds with what every serious competitor does. Garbarge in, garbage out.

"Back to the two quicks. I think you will be the first to agree that I can either arrive on the first quick with a drive and taper off on the next quick. Or I can do it the other way around."

No, you can't do it the other way around.

The rules are really simple, actually:

-A quick which is to be followed by a slow delays its placement at least a half beat into the time of that slow.

-A quick followed by a quick need not.

-A slow surrounded by quicks has its placement just a hair before its second beat.

And who teaches that a quick, which is followed by a slow delays its placement at least a half a beat into the time of that slow.
There are too many flaws in that. Take a Fallaway for one instance. You've just stolen a half a beat. So my Fallaway , the first step has one and a half beats instead of two. Very readable choreography don't you think.
What also must be taken into consideration is the reaction time between hearing the beat and stepping. We know among even the best atheletes sprinters or swimmers some have a reaction time faster than others. Its possible your reaction time is slower or faster than mine. I will hear the beat and step. You may hear the beat and also step but late. A judge doesn't have that problem, they listen and watch. If you are off the beat then you are not in time with the music. You are saying we can be off the beat but in time. Exactly who has said that we should step behind the beats.
Instead of quoting Alex Moore I will turn to Victor Silvester who said. To make the figures easier to learn, teachers substituted the use of slows and quicks in place of musical beats and the pupil only had to remember that a slow = two beats and a quick = one beat. This was in 1920. Nothing was said about stepping in between beats. Or to my knowledge ever has been . There has been though criticism of dancers stepping behind the beats. Untill I see in the correct technique books that a Feather Step is one two. three. four and a half I am not convinced.